Seema Azad – a human rights activist and President of the Uttar Pradesh (UP) chapter of People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL), a poet, author and an independent journalist, was recently in Kolkata to attend the 6th Kolkata People’s Literary Festival. She is the editor of a monthly non-commercial magazine ‘Dastak Naye Samay Ki’. A lawyer herself, Seema Azad was arrested in 2010 on charges of possessing Naxalite literature. During her stay in jail, she wrote two jail memoirs – ‘Zinda Nama – Chand Taron Ki Bagair Ek Duniya’ and ‘Aurat Ke Safar Jail Se Jail Tak’. 

Sudarshana Chakraborty from Groundxero talked to Seema Azad about the threat of fascism, BJP-RSS-Hindutva politics and the hope revolving around resistance literature and art.

GX: Seema, the BJP-RSS is gradually fulfilling all its agenda one by one, be it changing the laws or establishing Ram Mandir. Amidst all these, how do you perceive the role of the civil society movements in the country? 

Seema Azad:  If we talk about movement, its role can be really big now, because we always say that fascism comes through election, through the parliament, but it is not defeated through parliament, for that, people’s movement is needed. This is how it happened in history. We have read about it. Now we are watching it happen. The things we used to think will never happen are actually happening in reality.  We used to say jokingly that “The Prime minister will not do the pran prathistha”. But see, he actually did that! Now in this situation, the role of people’s movement is really important. But it does not seem that any movement is in the shape to fulfill this role. I think that is because all the movements are in a state of shock, as I was saying – “even such things can happen.”

In our circles, people used to say, “Come on it will never happen that such a judgment on Babri Masjid will come, where permission will be given to establish the Mandir in its place.” But that too happened. From the general democratic people to the people in movements – all are shocked. Probably it will take some time to swallow the reality but movements opposing the fascists will be built again. I have complete hope, because time cannot stand still, something or the other will happen. Now we are in a face to face tussle with the fascist forces, either they will move backward or we have to. 

Movements have to think a lot, because the time demands that many people have to come together.  The politics of exclusion will not work now, if the movements have to go forward they have to be inclusive to defeat fascism.

GX: You have rightly pointed out that this is the time when the movements have to come together, have to be inclusive. But if we look at the present scenario – the farmers’ movement, movements of the different sections of the working class, women’s movement – there seems to be a gap, the struggles are remaining isolated and they are not being inclusive. How will you explain that?

Seema Azad: Actually, till now, regarding the theory or practice of how the society changes, I feel people in India have not thought much about that. They are used to seeing that there will be a class of exploiters and there will be another class of exploited. But for the last 10-15 years people are understanding what has gone wrong. Such as, when there was a rise of Dalit politics, the Communists felt that they had missed it. “We had not addressed it, we left it to forces of caste politics”, they lamented. In the 1970’s when there was a rise in the feminist movement, they used to say, “This is against communist movement, it’ll break the communist movement.” But now they understand that as they had not addressed these issues, those movements have stood out separately. I think those who really want to bring changes, for the last few years they have started to rethink and work out new strategies. Also the Dalit movement, feminist and environmental movements have started to think that they cannot do much if they operate separately. Both sides are rethinking the issues. I hope this rethinking will match at some point; dialogues between movements are happening at many places.

But as you were asking why there is a gap, I think it’s there because…I want to give an example here, in our magazine Dastak, an article was published on Ambedkar, then a veteran CPI comrade called and asked me, “So now you consider Ambedkar as radical too?” I was surprised and when I asked him the reason for such a question, he said, “He stood against caste/class struggle.” The point is that many veteran communists still think in this manner – Dalit politics is misleading, women’s politics is liberal trap etc. etc. The obstacles are because of this thought process. If this could have been avoided then probably all would have been resisting the fascists together today. 

GX: Do you think that there is a generational gap within the communist movement? Is there a lack of understanding of the dynamics of contemporary politics by the veteran leadership as compared to the young generation?

Seema Azad:  At one level, I would say, yes, that is true. But the commitment of the veterans, the young generation still lacks that, and they need to learn it from them. This is a two-way exchange. I’m not trying to balance. I would rather agree more with you.

Take the example of the lgbtqia+ issues, the traditional understanding  of the Communist party does not include that, even though it is a big issue and deserves serious thought, they should also think about the live-in issue. The issues related to moral policing – the veterans look at those from an old point of view which are in conflict with how the young generation sees those issues. Also there is a problem between young women who have come forward and the veterans.

GX: Yes, I’ve heard from young women working how they have to face patriarchal discrimination within the party. Often they face paternal protective attitudes that are problematic indeed.

Seema Azad: This patriarchal attitude is somehow deep rooted. I can give my own example.  A young girl was coming for a meeting, her reservation was on a late night train, at around 2 am in the night. I called her up thrice. I was so concerned for her safety and was trying to guide her for her safety and security.  She didn’t tell me anything then, but when we met in the meeting, she did point out my mistake. She pointed out that if it was a boy, I wouldn’t have been so concerned about his safety and security. Then I understood that my upbringing played a role in influencing my mentality, also since I came into the movement, the scenario hasn’t changed. I believe that we can learn a lot from the new, young generation. I feel that there has to be a two-way learning between us and them. 

GX: Do you feel that whatever has been happening in India for the last 10-15 years while BJP-RSS has been in power – the ground for it was prepared long back? Also the other political parties, whoever was in power earlier, also somehow played a role in the rise of BJP-RSS. The INDIA alliance is now the main opposition. Do you think they are strong enough to take on the BJP in the general election?  What are your thoughts on electoral politics in present day India?

Seema Azad: This is absolutely true that the time we are facing now, its ground was prepared by the earlier political parties and leaders, be it regarding communalism or any other issue. So now we are harvesting the crops which had been sowed by earlier governments and BJP is reaping the benefit. You must have heard about the book on the popular H (Hindutva)-Pop phenemenon. The book explores the rise of rabid communal hate music and the existence of people in the society who harboured such toxic mentality towards the Muslims. When BJP came to power they got the opportunity to openly propagate and live on such ‘hate politics’. Surely the background was prepared long back. Actually this is the result of electoral politics. There is one of my poems where I say, “It is not necessary to cut Eklavya’s thumb to snatch away rights, the blue sign on the finger is enough.” I mean when we vote we give all our rights to a particular party and then the party keeps on selling the forest, land, rivers, whatever they like, but we can’t do anything. If we want to change anything, we have to be engaged in movements. This is electoral politics, that is, if we want to achieve anything, we want to exercise our opposition to what the elected government is doing, we have to go outside the electoral politics. We can’t do anything while being within electoral politics. So if the politics is like this, the government that we have now, the fascist government, we cannot just throw them away. True, that we have to get rid of it, it is absolutely necessary to defeat BJP, but the fact is, when we say we cannot defeat fascism through an election, we don’t talk about defeating a particular party, we talk about defeating the whole fascist regime. Even if we defeat BJP, fascism will still be there, because in all institutions people with fascist mentality are there. The hate wave has filled everything. So, only electoral politics will not work anymore, we need different kinds of political and cultural movements, the limitations of electoral politics is that it does not achieve any fundamental change. It can only change the government. To bring radical change, we have to go outside electoral politics.

GX: The kind of political, social and cultural changes that you are talking about, once the Communist parties used to play a major role in this regard. Why did they start to lose impact? 

Seema Azad: Yes, yes, of course. Many of the communist parties have disintegrated into multiple factions and nearly all of them have entered electoral politics. Communist party means they are talking about changing the whole society in the light of Marxism. And if we look at the write-ups, documents of the last many years, we will see that the change is not coming through electoral politics but they are stuck into it. So, this is their limitation. Second, there are a few communist parties who are outside the electoral politics, they give primary importance to people’s movements, building movements are their main goal towards which they keep working. I think the problem with them is that they didn’t understand many things at the right time, such as – the caste system and how it’s controlling our society. They kept on saying that there will be Kranti – a New Democratic Revolution. But they didn’t talk about how to democratize the process, before a revolution (Kranti), how to bring different sections of people together – how will the Sabarna (Upper caste) & Dalit come together? Because there are Sabarna people who are exploited by the system, and of course there are Dalits, there are women. They didn’t theorize these complexities. They have started now and yes at many places the work has gathered speed. I see all the movements as pearl beads, they stay separate, but the need is to bind them in a single string in the broader sense, till now – that is a problem. The day this will be done, change will start from there.

GX: Seeing the election manifestos of Congress, BJP, and left parties like CPIM – what major issues are going to impact this election?

Seema Azad: I will not be able to answer the questions properly because I haven’t read all the manifestos. Congress in its manifesto has not talked about CAA, arrests under UAPA, the increasing numbers of hate crimes etc.. The oppositions are not bringing up any issues from their side. BJP is talking about many issues. I’ve spoken to many people and asked them – there is so much unemployment in the country, what has the BJP done? They answered, “See, BJP has not come in power promising that they will eradicate unemployment. BJP promised to build Ram temple at Ayodhya and they have fulfilled that.” If the people are seeing the matter in this way they will not have any problem even if unemployment rises. I still have not understood if the oppositions have presented any issues before the people. They are clarifying their side by saying that they were not part of the building of the Ram temple. 

There are actually bigger issues which came from the people. We were discussing the other day – what are the issues which can be deciding factors in a defeat or win in an election. In the context of UP, I felt unemployment is a really big issue, the bulldozer-raj of Yogi is a big issue. The shanties of poor people are being bulldozed – so these are the issues which are not taken up either by the Congress or the opposition. Religious polarization will happen on issues like temples, muslim population etc. The civil society is engaged, in Allahabad and in many other cities, to unmask the BJP – its human rights violation, bulldozing of homes and means of livelihood, the violence on Muslims – they are bringing up those issues. How much they will succeed, I think, will take some time to understand. 

GX: Whenever we get the opportunity to speak to people from UP, many of them talk positively about development that is happening there under Yogi Adityanath. Share your thoughts on how that is going to impact the election?

Seema Azad: Yes, the truth is people who vote for BJP are not only the ones who support temples, but are those who support Vikash, i.e. Development. I know my relatives in UP who support BJP because roads are being built, Allahabad-Lucknow-Aligarh will become smart cities. They are very happy. In reality also, roads have been broadened, many things have changed. Development is happening at a high speed. 

PUCL (UP chapter) has worked a lot on this model of development. In this model there is no people’s participation, it’s not asked to us what we want for development. In the name of development so many trees were cut, so many homes demolished and people living there were not rehabilitated. All the cities are becoming alike – but these are issues for us. It’s impossible to make others understand that the development by BJP will be a loss in the long run.

They believe in the development rhetoric and will cast their votes on its basis. BJP has an upper hand in this regard in comparison with other parties, because, it happened after they came into power, the corporates followed soon after; the slogans are written like this – Benaras will become Kyoto, Allahabad will become New York and people are happy. In fact those who are staying abroad when they come back are also happy because their cars can now move fast, and they say things like, “Yes, a lot of development is happening.” Yes, this will have an impact in the election. 

Also, a large section of people who have faced losses are also supporting BJP and that is because of the Ram temple. Near my house, some houses were demolished in the name of broadening the road and it was claimed that those houses were unauthorized. You must have heard Atique’s name, the other person who was encountered along with him was Gulam. His house was bulldozed back then, it was the first house on that road. Later, when others faced the same consequences, I asked them how they felt for Gulam? They kept silent for a while and replied, “We feel bad and we did wrong by keeping silent.” It seems some realization is dawning upon them, when asked if this time they will vote for BJP, they replied, “No, No, this time we won’t vote for them anymore.” 

Then came 22nd January, the day of Pran Pratistha at Ram Temple at Ayodhya. I was prescribed bed rest due to an accident, but as I was having a strange feeling, I somehow went out and I was stunned to see that those same people, those whose houses were demolished, were waving saffron flags and distributing ‘prasad’. When I asked them, they said, “This is all about Ram, the conflict was with the government. We will fight with the government on the issues of our houses being demolished, but this is about Ramlala.” I don’t understand which issue will influence them while casting their vote? I don’t know.

GX:  If we talk about Yogi Adityanath, what is his strategy to control the state, the psyche of the people. Your thoughts?

Seema Azad: Yogi runs a police state. As we are talking today, another judicial death has taken place, this is the 7th custodial death within the last 2 months, 5 took place in March only. The police fear nothing, they can do anything, Yogi will save them. The police have got a green signal to do anything they like, and people are really scared of this police state. On behalf of PUCL, we took up the first case of custodial death, now this is the 7th one. In all these cases only one death is of an upper caste person and only in this case a FIR has been filed. It helps to understand to which extent it has become a police state. We are thinking of clubbing all these cases together and filing something in court.

Even the Brahmins in UP are thinking that they are being oppressed by the Thakurs. Encounters have increased, maximum numbers of encounters are taking place in UP. More than 1000 cases are there in the Supreme Court. There are numerous incidents of half-encounters, where the person is shot at the knee. UP tops the chart in regard to custodial deaths, and the crime rate is also the highest among states.

The CM is saying law and order is at its best. He claims earlier women used to be afraid to go out, now if anyone teases a woman, the next day he will be dead. He is speaking the language of hooligans. But neither the Election Commission nor the High Court is saying anything. People who are Hindutvavadi, they support Yogi, they want Yogi to succeed Modi as PM. They like Yogi’s masculinity, there is an open ‘tanashahi’ attitude of him, and people like it, the mass psychology is like that. Yogi is called ‘Bulldozer Baba’ because his government has bulldozed hundreds of Muslim houses. Dalit slums, underprivileged houses – all were demolished but the TV news projected that it was mostly Muslim houses. TV projected that they [Muslims] are our enemies and their houses are being demolished. When Javed Mohammed’s house, Gulam’s house was bulldozed, Akbarpur’s slums were demolished – it was telecasted 24X7 live on TV channels. But when Hindu slums in Mathura, Lucknow, Allahabad were bulldozed, it was not shown much, because it would have the opposite reaction. When a Muslim’s house is bulldozed it helps in furthering communal polarization.

GX: Do you think that women feel safe in Yogi’s ‘raj’? On which basis do you think women, the young generation women will cast their vote?

Seema Azad: Nobody feels safe. No woman feels safe. No couple feels safe. If a young couple is walking around the university, the proctor or any other person can just hold them and beat them up. 

The point is that it is mostly RSS and the Sadhus, who talk about the patriarchal traditions, how women should dress, behave etc. So the young generation women do not see BJP directly as the supporter of such regressive politics. There are many within the young generation who support BJP.  They cannot see the connection between BJP supporting Asaram and Ram Rahim. They talk about ‘Vikas’ under BJP.

I’m not saying anything final. In universities (BHU, Aligarh) people with progressive thoughts are increasing, the number of ABVP members is actually decreasing. It is only because they are aggressive that they are more visible, but their activities on the ground are less. Left parties’ student wings (SFI, AISA, Bhagat Sing Chatra Morcha) have more supporters. I can see the changes everywhere.

GX: In the last 10 years what were the challenges that PUCL had faced and how did you navigate those challenges? Also what will be your strategy for the coming days?

Seema Azad: I will tell you frankly. PUCL in UP does not have that much man force right now to work with the judiciary, which it used to have in the earlier years. If I talk about the organizational aspect, there are too many challenges. First, the work is not progressing much and the number of PUCL members has gone down. The situation is such that an organization like PUCL has a role to play but it needs more members to do it. We have our own limitations, to do more work we have to cross that limit.

PUCL is working more with other organizations in different parts of the country. The main work that PUCL does – judicial intervention. PUCL is doing continuous work in this regard everywhere, fighting cases. For example, in the Bhima Koregaon case or Delhi riot case or CAA-NRC protest case many PUCL members are involved along with many others. 

But the fact is that the character of the judiciary has also changed widely. The cases which organizations like PUCL bring to the judiciary, the judiciary intentionally does not work on them, I’ve seen this in many cases. My first case after becoming a lawyer was regarding a CAA-NRC protest case, it’s still not resolved, till 2019 there were 3 hearings, then Covid happened, the 4th hearing never happened. There are so many cases like this. In the Supreme Court, the case which challenged the CAA act is hanging, now people are saying the case should be revived, when the rules have been notified and the Act has already been implemented. 

The Judiciary is actually trying to demoralize the people in two ways. One is – they are giving out negative verdicts, two is – they are working on such cases for an indefinite time. Earlier there were significant cases which PUCL used to bring up and the judiciary used to take up those cases. 

GX: We were talking about resistance and alternative literature, media…

Seema Azad: I have a problem with the word ‘alternative media’. Alternative to what? If we look at history there were stories written praising kings and then there were folktales etc, which talked about people. To me, ‘alternative’ is just a term which is being used now. These two types always existed since there were exploiters and the exploited. The ground reality is where there is exploitation, there is resistance, and people who tell the stories of such resistances.

We have to document the time which is also a resistance as we were not only bearing the sadness of oppression but we are also expressing that without being afraid. I feel it should not be called alternative but resistance literature, resistance art – be it national, regional or local. Resistance does not have any alternative. Resistance literature in whatever form is the only way to keep the resistance alive and take it forward.

GX: Most of such spaces are being appropriated, co-opted by those in power?

Seema Azad: Yes, this is true. They are having the upper hand now. But even in such a situation, resistance literature does not stop, resistance cinema has not ended, and this is a positive thing. You were asking if I am pessimistic or optimistic, I would say look at history – it may happen that such times will be longer, we may feel frustrated too, but it will end someday.

There is a very famous quote of Lenin which says, sometimes centuries pass and nothing happens and sometimes within a second century change. Scientifically also we cannot say when quantitative changes will bring qualitative changes. We should always continue the work to facilitate quantitative changes into qualitative changes. 

GX: What do you want to predict about the Lok Sabha election result?

Seema Azad: I want to see the BJP defeated. I know if BJP is defeated, fascism will not go away, but it will take a step backward. So I want the BJP to be defeated. My observation is BJP may win this time too but their vote share and number of seats will be less this time. They are claiming ‘Ab ke bar 400 par’, I’m hopeful that will not happen.